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Choose my instruction instead of silver - Proverbs 8:10
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gingerwine
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:35 am Post subject: Living off the gospel |
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Hi fruit. I'll start the thread just by asking the same question.
Paul says those who preach the gospel are allowed to live off the gospel. How would you draw the line between earning your living at it and making merchandise of it?
Paul, himself, preferred not to live off preaching the gospel, but said to do so okay.
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JRob
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Could you reference the scripture you are speaking of? Just for clarity. |
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gingerwine
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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hello JRob.........
1Cr 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
1Cr 9:12 If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Cr 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1Cr 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1Cr 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for [it were] better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
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JRob
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hello gingerwine...
I thought that was what you were referring to and I think it is a valid question and one worth studying out. If you think of all the people in ministry who make a profit through their "ministry" it begs the question where do you draw the line.
I have some thoughts and ideas based on previous teachings I have heard. I really desire to get refreshed in those principles before I try to articulate myself because the context in which the statement is made is important to the discussion.
I'd love to hear your thoughts as well as "The Fruits" and look forward to coming back to the forum. This was my first time here and was refreshing to see that it is not just a chat room filled with...well, idle chit chat... |
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the fruit
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by the fruit on Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:28 am; edited 3 times in total |
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the fruit
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by the fruit on Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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the fruit
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by the fruit on Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JRob
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again everyone,
Fruit, you brought out the scriptures that substantiate the right that a minister has to partake of the body's natural support. It is our reasonable service if we rightfully assertain the value of what is being provided to us. For me that is settled in my heart. But equally important is the understanding that not everyone who is in ministry is called.
1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
| Quote: | How would you draw the line between earning your living at it and making merchandise of it?
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I don't know, maybe it's just me but, when I see "earn your living" my mind goes immediately to the thought that a person has chosen this as a profession. I think I know the intent of the question and I don't like to play on words but it still conveys kind of strange.
Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
From Jamieson, Fausset & Brown - not given to filthy lucre--not making the Gospel a means of gain ( 1Ti 3:3, 8 ). In opposition to those "teaching for filthy lucre's sake" ( Tts 1:11 1Ti 6:5 1Pe 5:2 ).
In an age where spirituallity is fashionable but Christianity is intolerable is it safe to say that there will be many who were not called but desire to provide people with the message that they want to hear and make a living doing so?
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
| Quote: | | From what I have seen so far, I am persuaded it comes down to ones motives in their heart, and that is sonething only God and perhaps the person knows. |
The answer to the question truly comes down to the motives of one's heart. But even that is subjective. I have heard people say they want to go into ministry. Is that God's will or theirs? For example, I have known men, who do not have their home in order and the wife is the head, adamant about becoming a Pastor. Can we say this person is hearing from God when their life is out of order and they are being disobedient to the general revealed will of God.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Our prayer should be just like Jesus' model prayer. Not my will but His be done. I believe the line is drawn when a person either begins in their own will or starts in Father's but they loses sight of the purpose of ministry. I also believe that there are many where we can judge and say, what is there ministry producing?
Your thoughts?
What are your thoughts? |
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the fruit
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by the fruit on Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JRob
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Hello again The Fruit, no problem as it is so hard to express yourself in this way and be clearly understood.
I can't fully respond right away but I will say this tonight. Sometimes we think we know our own motives but we don't know until God reveals them to us. At that point, if our motives are wrong, we have two options: to change or, to continue on in our own will. But at any given moment what our motives are to us is subjective to what "we" think they are. We don't know our own hearts all the time...sometimes I wonder if we ever really know our own hearts you know...That's all I meant there.
I'll get back to you again soon as I really desire to answer completely.
For future reference, is there any way to save what I have written so far to complete it at a later time without having to stay logged on???? Would help alot.
Thanks and God Bless You!!
JRob |
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the fruit
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by the fruit on Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gingerwine
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| JRob wrote: | | For future reference, is there any way to save what I have written so far to complete it at a later time without having to stay logged on???? Would help alot. |
You have to highlight your post, copy it and paste it to your word pad which stores it in your documents folder. Then you can access it offline. If you don't know how to do this, let me know.
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JRob
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Again,
I do apologize for taking so long to reply. It is the end of basketball season and my son has been playing alot of games and our schedules are alittle stretched to say the least.
The Fruit, I just want to go back to your question.
| Quote: | A man's wife is to submit to no man but her own husband, and to those women in the church who are over her. So to say his wife is the head would take some qualifying. Could you give us an example of a situation where you think if it makes the wife the head the husband is unfit for ministry?
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If I follow you, I see in the scriptures that the husband is the head of the wife. And that a man who qualifies for the role of a bishop must have his own house in order.
1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
A bishop must be....
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
You asked for an example. I know a couple who years ago left a church because they just wouldn't submit to the Word of God. Part of their original issue was that the man just would not assume his role as the head. It had many effects on their marriage and their family. When they left they went to another church who not only accepted the fact that their home was out of order, they asked them to take over the church. They are now pastoring the church. I have seen them several times over the past years and it's very obvious that not much has changed. The husband/pastor always seems like he wants to run and hide. I wish I could explain this man to you but...the only word that comes to mind is cowardly. I hurt for him every time I see him.
I agree with your point that if we are born again then we are called to ministry. Every one of us! But what ministry we are called to exactly is up to the Lord.
There is also a family, whom I know very well, who left a church and they, no doubt, were disobedient the Word. They went to another church and within weeks were asked to pastor a new church. No call to their last pastor to see why they left or what was going on in their life. Just based on their knowledge of the scripture. That scares me!
Paul said...
1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
The role of overseers is not to be counted common and it is not to be taken lightly. The Word itself shows that not everyone qualifies for these positions.
I feel it safe to say that though we are all called to ministry, whe cannot assume that everyone serving in those positions of oversight are called of God because they say so. Sadly we cannot assume that they are even if someone else says so. It is their life and the fruit of their life.
Their are many aspects of ministry and we must soberly seek God to see what he has for us and seek to excel at that. To pursue that role with an excellent spirit. Not trying to be something that God hasn't called us to. If you have been asked by your leadership to be a sunday school teacher but you really desire to be a deacon, then you be the best sunday school teacher that you know how to be and pursue it with excellence. And if God wants you to be a deacon then he will be the one to make it happen.
Pro 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?
We don't have to make things happen ourselves for God will open doors that no man can shut and he will close doors that no man can open. We can safely trust that if we are zealously pursuing holiness then the Lord is in total control of our lives. And where people go wrong is becoming discontent with where God has them and they make things happen in the arm of the flesh. Because they establish in their own minds what is spiritual instead of seeing that obedience is most spiritual. Hey, cleaning the toilets in the house of God is more spiritual for a person than being a pastor if God has called them to clean the toilets. LOL 
I hope this helps explain what I was saying. I do want to stress that I believe that every believer should be seeking to serve in ministry. For the greatest among us is the servant of all. We should be laying down our lives for the brethren and for the lost. None should think that they are exempt and I don't believe that anyone can live a life to themselves with the "me and Jesus" mentality. That was never Jesus' mentality, it was always ministry.
May the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you!
JRob |
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the fruit
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by the fruit on Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JRob
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The Fruit,
Define your idea of headship. Do you believe in dual headship? Do you believe that the wife should play the role of the head of the family? If not, then it's self explanitory. She was the head of that household not him. |
I believe you need to qualify your comment JRob. I have no idea what you as JRob means by head of the household, or what you think qualifies as that.
| Quote: | | I feel hurt for that Husband/Pastor because I have compassion. I know that Father doesn't want him to be so timid and afraid and I want to see him walking in boldness as the righteous are bold as a lion. |
Yes and harmless as serpent and innocent as doves. Do you feel you fit all three qualifications?
| Quote: | | He hides behind his wife who has a strong personallity. |
Are you afraid of strong willed women JRob?
| Quote: | Emotionally though, she needs him to be the stronger vessel not the weaker. She is an emotional women and she makes the decisions. This should not be so.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But which becometh women professing godliness with good works.
[b]11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. |
These verses say nothing about emotions JRob. Are you saying your friends wife has broided hair and he can't make her change it so he is unfit for ministry? Or are you saying she is the pastor and teacher of the church since that section you offered is set up for church order?
What I am saying JRob, is your verses don't substantiate your charges.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I feel I must disagree with your point here. I think one should be very carful about allowing others to decide what ministry they are called into. I personally think advice is great and shouldbe sought from a trusted source, but if one does not feel called to teach they should not, no matter what other men or women in the church think. |
Who in your church decides who your sunday school teachers and deacons are? |
Where does the bible authority for Sunday school come from?
And to answer your question, me.
| Quote: | | I thank the Lord he didn't share your perspective and I know he would agree with me |
This is an uncalled remark JRob. This type of thing only sows strife and will get your post removed here. We don't make sly remark or innuendo's here. We don't get angry and argue, or puff ourselves up at the expense of another.
Such will get the post removed on first offense, and any more of such after that will result in all post by the individual following being removed, no matter how nice or benign. As well as the board's Admin. being petitioned to have the account removed.
I am not trying to be harsh, but we WILL keep this a calm and respectful enviroment.
There are plenty of places one can go on the net and debate. This is not one of them. This is for study purposes alone. To grow and learn. We can ask hard questions, disagree and conversate.
But if someone strongly disagrees with another poster here on a point, it is best to start a new thread on it, without naming names unless it is a spin off done in agreement and agreably. Then just use the same verses the other party used without refering to them or their beliefs, but with just your own interpretation of what they are saying. That way folks can read both and make their own minds up, without strife and insult. I think that is the best way to keep the peace.
Welcome BTW.
Now let's see if what you say on His agreeing with you is correct.
| Quote: | | b]Hbr 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.[/b] |
But this says nothing about any one calling one to a ministry. How does it help what you said?
| Quote: | | Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you. |
Are you certain this is not speaking of submitting to their teachings? Please, explain why you feel this means a man can call another man to serve in one of the five fold ministries.
| Quote: | | I know that man is not perfect but I think it is more dangerous for a person to not have a proper understanding of leadership roles than it is for someone who truly has a heart for truth and the Lord to follow after men of God whose lives are proven. |
This is an excellent point, JRob. Please do a study for us on the leadership roles of the church. I agree many do not have a proper understanding of it. Please, explain it to us.
[ | Quote: | | quote]I personally don't believe in pastor's in the traditional use of the word. In many way's the use of the office is not according to the word of God. IMO. |
What do you mean? [/quote]
Well, that is pretty much it JRob. But I am positive it will become more clear as you lead us in the study on church leadership roles I requested above. It will unfold itself then, to be sure.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | And though others may see it, one should only follow their own convictions and NEVER go into a ministry based on what others think that person should do. |
In response to your last statement I am inclined to disagree. Wasn't Timothy left in charge of the church of Ephesus by Paul when Paul left? |
Yes Paul left Timothy to do alone a job he was already doing in a field he had already been working in. It says no hwere paul called Timothy to the ministry. Paul only trainned the called man, laid hands on him because he was called, and gave him a position after some time of trainning and working together in a field God called them both to.
So that still leaves me asking you to show how people can call people to ministry. The call of salvation goes out of the mouth of an evangelist, but there is nothing that suggest any man calls another to teach.
Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
So, this says it is God who gives those to us so they can train the next group coming up He has called. But nly God can call someone and a person should NEVER let a man over ride their own convictions about what they are called to do. |
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