Verse by verse study of Matt 24

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

Good morning and God bless. Very Happy

I know this seems to be going at a snail's pace, but I too want to be sure of my footing and have been studying many angles. Of course, it's so easy to get lost in them all. LOL!

So..... a slight correction to the last post where I said this particular Greek word sorrows ( Strongs 5604) was only used in 4 verses. In 3 more verses, Strongs 5605 which is from 5604 the word is translated travail and in all 7 cases means particularly related to the pains of childbirth.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Interesting then that in Acts 2 **pains** (sorrows) of death are linked to the similitude of travailing in childbirth.

let's look at Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail (sorrow) in birth again until Christ be formed in you.

this is Paul's sorrow concerning the Galatians

Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So the Galatians had received the seed (fruit of the womb) through the gospel preached to them by Paul, but this seed was not **forming** as Christ (son in their womb) in them. Therefore, Paul was being made sorrowful again or made to travail again to bring forth children. But more specifically, a man child, Christ in them.

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Now, we have to divide this again because it is evident that everyone travails in childbirth, but not everyone carries this child (Christ) to full formation and deliverance of the child as evidenced by 1 Thess 5:3. IOW, there are miscarriages.

Hsa 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, [is] planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.
Hsa 9:14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

So what is Paul saying here; that the whole creation has been pregnant till now, waiting to be delivered, but that Christ came in the fulness of time when the creation was ready to be delivered of her child.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

But here is something very interesting;

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body

1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

So although Paul is saying that he and his reader have Christ ( that they have brought forth the child ) They are still **waiting** for the adoption., which Paul specifically says is the redemption of the body.

adoption = redemption of the body.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, ( the body) unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. ( redeeming of the body)

Therefore one can be sealed as a son of God, but not yet adopted or redeemed.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So when he shall appear is when our body will be redeemed.

Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Ti 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

these next scriptures speak of two appearances; past and future

Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness ( a pregnant woman is in heaviness) through manifold temptations:

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

So it becomes apparent that right up to the writing of 1 John, that Christ had not appeared this second time and that as the redemption of the body is specifically linked to his appearance, neither had this occurred.

I would have to think that the phrase "the body" applies to the whole church.

What do you think?

Very Happy

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

I forgot to point this out which needs consideration.

Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

His first appearance was in this world, teaching how we should live in this present world.

Is his next appearance also in this world?

Also, this word appearing is translated brightness here;

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So really, this reads "and shall destroy with the appearing of his coming."

So, once again in context of Thess, it had not yet happened, even though these were converts Paul was talking to. And he gave the criteria for this appearing.

Very Happy

the fruit · Joined: 06 Sep 2007 Posts: 139

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

good morning............... Very Happy

I want to revisit this;

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains (sorrows) of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also **shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption** into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

given the strong connection to the likeness of a woman giving birth, then the child being held in bondage, corruption and death is likened to the womb. When the child emerges from the womb, it is **delivered** into freedom and the glorious liberty and the pangs cease, being turned into joy. So deliverance is the key issue.

2Cr 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

This is the transformation from the bondage of elements of the world as a natural man into a man of the spirit. But you will notice that Paul uses three tenses; delivered, doth deliver and will yet deliver.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of **this** death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Isa 46:3 ¶ Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne [by me] from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
Isa 46:4 And [even] to [your] old age I [am] he; and [even] to hoar hairs will I carry [you]: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver [you].

Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Hsa 9:11 [As for] Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.
Hsa 9:12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, [that there shall] not [be] a man [left]: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!
Hsa 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, [is] planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life (seed, Jesus) abiding in him.

As to the beginning of sorows, here is what I think it means; these are the similitudes;

Jer 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
Deu 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
Deu 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

Jdg 5:2 Praise ye the LORD for the avenging (same word as revenges) of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves.

Interestingly, it means leader, commander.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation [that] thou knowest not, and nations [that] knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

2Cr 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, **when your obedience is fulfilled.**

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Is 46:4 above
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Very Happy

word searcher · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 17 Location: everywhere USA

hi gingerwine!

Your study is blessing me with every word.
thankyou.

One thing I'd like to say concerning the travailing and sorrows.
In my own life and since I have been studying God's word, there have been times that I have gone through some very dark and lonely tunnels.
It's like an "inner" turmoil tossing and turning and being thrown from side to side.
I have had a child and I know the "birth pains" in a natural way. The walking and pacing and hoping for it all to be over.
But the "birth pains" in the spiritual way are much deeper. They are in the heart and in the mind. They cause you to rock side to side..

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

Hi searcher. I'd like to address this;

word searcher · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 17 Location: everywhere USA

I hear you too gingerwine..
good word!

2Cr 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

it's the ins and outs of truth.. Very Happy

hugs

the fruit · Joined: 06 Sep 2007 Posts: 139

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

Thanks guys. Hopefully tomorrow. As the spirit leads.

Very Happy

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

Good morning............ Very Happy

I was thinking to move on to the next verse, but seems I'm being prevented. Must be more to learn here, so we're going to have a look at this;

Jhn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

Strong's weep; just a reminder here that if I use other scripture, it is only scripture which uses the exact same Greek word

1) to mourn, weep, lament

a) weeping as the sign of pain and grief for the thing signified (i.e. for the pain and grief)

b) of those who mourn for the dead

2) to weep for, mourn for, bewail, one

Mar 16:9 ¶ Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Mar 16:10 [And] she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and **wept.**

Luk 6:21 Blessed [are ye] that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed [are ye] that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

So this is the reversal spoken of by Jesus in John seen in Rev.

Rev 18:9 ¶ And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, (those that rejoice now) shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Strong's lament;
1) to mourn, to lament

a) of singers of dirges, [to wail]

2) to bewail, deplore

let's look a little carefully at this;

Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

do you see what he is saying? The days **are coming** in which it would be a blessing not to have had children. Why? because there is going to be much sorrow. Not the sorrow of his death, but the sorrow of what is going to be coming upon **them.**

Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

What is Jesus saying here? You are at the moment a green tree and still they kill and shed innocent blood. How much more evil things will be done when this tree is dried up. Therefore evil will increase ( be multiplied ) and therefore sorrows multipled.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Why is Jerusalem called a green tree?

Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, [and] of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

Eze 17:24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done [it].

See the reversal?

How does a tree stay green? Rain.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Isa 5:1 ¶ Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
Isa 5:3 ¶ And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Isa 5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; [and] break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
Isa 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Amo 4:7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when [there were] yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Paul and Barnabus to the Gentiles

Act 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
Act 14:16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

and this is worth emphasizing speaking of God's goodness even to the wicked and unbelievers;

Act 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

What is the rain?

Hsa 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for [it is] time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

So you see that the 2 witnesses were given power to shut up heaven that it rained not righteousness upon whom they choose in the days of their prophecy.

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Very Happy

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

The other thing I wanted to touch on was this; you know that when a woman is pregnant that she is said to be expecting;

Strongs expecting;

1) to receive, accept

2) to look for, expect, wait for, await

Jam 5:7 ¶ Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth ( in expectation) for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Hbr 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Strongs earnest expectation;

1) anxious and persistent expectation

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body

So remember what we learned earlier; adoption = redemption of the body. We are pregnant with hope; pained to be delivered.

so, had the following happened yet?

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Interesting question.

Psa 9:18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall [not] perish for ever.

Psa 62:5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation [is] from him.

Pro 10:28 The hope of the righteous [shall be] gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.

Pro 11:7 When a wicked man dieth, [his] expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust [men] perisheth.

Pro 11:23 The desire of the righteous [is] only good: [but] the expectation of the wicked [is] wrath.

Pro 23:18 For surely there is an end; and thine expectation shall not be cut off.

Pro 24:14 So [shall] the knowledge of wisdom [be] unto thy soul: when thou hast found [it], then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off.

Very Happy

the fruit · Joined: 06 Sep 2007 Posts: 139

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

good afternoon.......... God bless

In summary, what have we learned;

That we are planted with the seed ( which is Christ in us ) and that he is our hope and that hope is our expectation until we are redeemed (adopted)

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Strong's redemption;

1) a releasing effected by payment of ransom

a) redemption, deliverance

b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

When you break it all down it becomes quite clear that although Christ had paid a ransom for us and purchased us, he had yet to possess his purchase and that that would not happen until "the day of redemption" And really, when you think about it, a promise isn't still a promise if it's been fulfilled already.

2Th 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

1Cr 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Very Happy

gingerwine · Joined: 10 Oct 2007 Posts: 59 Location: Canada

Good morning.

today we will be moving on to the next verse and in this case will include the mark and Luke account;

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony

the Matt account is fairly straighforward and we know by the NT writings as well as secular history that the disciples as well as Christians in general were afflicted, imprisoned and killed by both Jews and Gentiles.

And so when Jesus says for his names sake, he most certainly means for preaching the gospel in his name. Once again, unless the gospel is no longer being preached in his name and *Christ*ians no longer being afflicted, imprisoned and killed, how can any come to the conclusion that this prophecy has yet reached it's end?

I've heard the argument that Jesus was referring solely to the disciples in order to justify that eveything was fulfilled by 70 AD.

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

However, Jesus spoke to his disciples privately on many occassions and what reasonable person could think his words on these occassions were also not meant for the generations following. The only thing I might say about this is that when Christianity became the law of the land, being made legal in the fourth century ( approx 320 AD, not sure of exact date), the tribulations and afflictions associated with just being a Christian
would have started to decline.

However, we know that the persecutions of Christians has been a staple throughout history even if they were conducted by other so-called Christians. As the Israelites oppressed there own people, so did and still do Christians afflict Christians.

However, to my mind, the legalizing of Christianity would seem to be an important event and I have it pretty well settled in my own mind for now that it marks the end of the first beast with 7 heads and the beginning of the 8th with ten kings, but that's another story. Rev. 17:10

There's not much more to say about the persecutions, so we will turn to this;

Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them

Back later, hopefully

Very Happy